JonasParker: Check this out.
deb: should i be outraged?
JonasParker: It's a little odd, the whole thing.
deb: arranged marriages or getting married young?
JonasParker: Not that she walked out, but that she is being married off at 12, that it's such a HUGE event, and that the government seems bound to tolerate it.
deb: well, i don't jp..i think the gov't recognizes that it's cultural and really have no right to interfere. that she is twelve is not that alarming...it wasn't THAT long ago that women were getting married that young
deb: i suppose i feel bad that she is being forced to marry someone she doesn't want to marry
JonasParker: No right to interfere, eh? Then why should everyone else have to wait until they are 18?
deb: i don’t know...sounds like an archaic law designed to dictate the lives of its citizens
deb: it's all morality
JonasParker: You'd think that there'd be laws against child molestation, etc. But they "tolerate" this because they are a cultural minority?
JonasParker: Something seems more than a little off to me.
deb: well, i'd be alarmed if it was a society that suppressed their sexuality like ours, we don't let our 12 yr olds get married because we don't even want to tell them about sex at that age, but the gypsies i imagine are little less uptight about such things...i don't know for sure, but culturally speaking, i think its acceptable
JonasParker: Ah, well then if you bring that into play, should there even be age-of-consent laws here?
deb: what are those?
JonasParker: Or anywhere, for that matter?
JonasParker: Is that a joke?
deb: no...what is an age of consent law (I'm pretty sure i know, just want to make sure)
JonasParker: I don't have the technicalities of it, but it's a law that says that you must be at least a certain age to consent to sex with anyone.
JonasParker: They differ from place to place.
deb: uhuh...but not all cultures have the same attitudes about sex
JonasParker: I know this, but most western nations do have these laws in place.
deb: ok, but why can't people decide for themselves that they have to have a law?
JonasParker: I'd be surprised if there was no such law at all there.
JonasParker: Could you restate that? I think there was a typo.
deb: i just meant that people don't need a law to tell them when to have sex. what's the age of consent in canada?...I'm sure many of my friends and i broke it as teens
JonasParker: Yes, at least half of us do. It was designed to prevent older predators from harming youngsters.
deb: that's called statutory rape, and yes, in our society a law like that makes sense
deb: we work so hard at repressing sexuality, no wonder there are sexual deviants out there looking to harm young people
JonasParker: In their society, it could very well work there as well. Imagine all the ones who think it is almost perfectly acceptable to have their way with boys and girls 12 years of age, for example.
JonasParker: Because they have fewer taboos about sex. This sort of thing is just as easy if not easier to sweep under the rug for them.
deb: huh! are there high instances of pedophilia in gypsy cultures?
JonasParker: Just as it is in all closed societies. I'm talking about the gypsies, not Romanians in general, BTW.
deb: what if it's an acceptable sexual practice?
JonasParker: To have sex with kids against their will?
deb: no.
JonasParker: I doubt it is acceptable to have sex outside of marriage, particularly at that age.
deb: just having sex with young people in general, if there's no stigma or shame attached to it...what's the harm?
deb: I’m just asking...i don’t think it's an acceptable practice....but I'm asking...what if it was???
deb: ok, let's use another example.
deb: female circumcision in africa...totally barbaric practice, but is it our job to stop it?
JonasParker: No.
JonasParker: It's not our "job", but if they want help in stopping it, why wouldn't we help?
deb: same things with these marriages
deb: ah...but no one has asked us to stop it, and why couldn't they stop it themselves
JonasParker: There are more and more of these girls unwilling to go for these forced marriages. If they need support, shouldn't we support them?
deb: no.
JonasParker: They should stop it themselves, then.
deb: yes. maybe that sounds cold hearted, but it means less if people who don't understand your culture storm in telling you what to do
JonasParker: You really don't believe in cooperation, do you? Someone needs help, an offer is made, and those that need help get it. And I am not talking about the kind of help that you might get from a gun.
JonasParker: Culture is great, but culture gets eclipsed by tradition. Every time. Once it made sense to not eat pork, or to get married at age 12, or lots of things.
deb: i believe in cooperation but only within the context that the problem arises. the idea that a bunch of people on the other side of the world knows more about what you want than your own self is a little strange
deb: culture is tradition
JonasParker: Chances are, it no longer makes sense. But tradition takes hold, and people end up being forced to do things that may very well be wrong for them "just because".
deb: there are reasons behind all of our morality...some of it makes sense, some of it doesn’t
JonasParker: Just because it's always been done that way.
deb: you can't respect that
JonasParker: Someone on the other side of the world may know exactly what it is like to be forced into marriage and sexual relations before their time.
deb: ah...but in the context of their culture...it is not before their time...and besides, puberty is a pretty big indicator that their time has come
JonasParker: So you're saying that a person's heart, mind and in some cases, body do not outweigh what their culture forces upon them?
JonasParker: If that person believes it wrong, you're saying that it doesn't matter much because the culture they grew up in dictates otherwise?
deb: sure...unless
JonasParker: When someone is hurt, you measure that hurt from the perspective of that person, not from the intentions of those who did the hurt.
deb: i know what you're saying, it’s a very individualistic view.
JonasParker: Yes, it is.
deb: when you're dealing with big governments and large populations it’s hard to take into account everyone's feelings and desires
JonasParker: The problem with the entire cultural view is that people, without whom you would have no culture to speak of, are hurt needlessly.
deb: people are hurt everyday jp...there is no way of preventing that
JonasParker: Checks are needed to protect against those with power.
JonasParker: I know, I know. If I could type fast enough I would have said it before you.
JonasParker: I see no reason why we should not even try to minimize this, though.
deb: first man is flawed, so we have to make laws to protect him, then the system is flawed so we have to make more rules to protect man from laws.
deb: why can't people be trusted with their own judgement?
JonasParker: The same reason that people cannot be trusted with their own justice. The same reason why not everyone can protect themselves.
deb: that is?
JonasParker: We are not completely self-sufficient islands. If everyone could take care of themselves all the time, they probably would.
JonasParker: Of course, you'll probably say that the system makes us reliant on others for justice, food, etc.
deb: ...that's not what I'm suggesting of course, i would never suggest the people live alone and solely govern themselves..
deb: it does jp, if no one told us what to do...we'd figure it out
JonasParker: As you might say, it wasn't always like this. No one told us what to do, and then, someone was telling us what to do.
deb: right.
JonasParker: Maybe someone looked to the stars one day for guidance and saw God.
JonasParker: An authority figure. And then someone decided that we needed more of these figures to guide us.
deb: they had gods, they were a very spiritual people, but the one thing they didn’t do was tell everybody how to live
JonasParker: And so on, and so on. If everything were reset to zero again, what makes you think it would be different this time?
deb: authority came with the locking up of food
JonasParker: Fine. What makes you think it wouldn't happen this time?
deb: nothing makes me think it would be different, but people still need to wake up and realize that we are driving ourselves to extinction with our homogeneity
JonasParker: Fine. But saying that we should be trusted with our own judgement now is wrong. So many things need to happen first before that could ever become a desirable option on the scale that you are talking about.
deb: granted. but perhaps we should start by biting our tongues when things happen in other countries...
deb: why would we have more authority?
deb: what makes us qualified to say...this is right and that is wrong
JonasParker: I don't know. But are you willing to not have any kind of standard? Are you willing to have people taking advantage of the weak even more?
JonasParker: Maybe what makes us qualified comes down to numbers.
JonasParker: If enough think it is wrong, then it effectively is.
JonasParker: Many people think that capitalism is wrong, but not enough do.
deb: well the weak will have to wake the fuck up, or something will eventually give...why can't things just run their course?
JonasParker: Because everyone believes in the deus ex machina, the godman, or something external to all that they know to come and fix everything.
JonasParker: Like Jesus Christ. Although I am not sure what things this godman fixed.
deb: what if the french came into canada and said...the practice of women shaving their armpits is sexist and unacceptable, we demand you abolish this practice
JonasParker: There is no story more seductive than that of the hero.
deb: there is nothing to be fixed...that's the illusion
JonasParker: Then the Americans would say, "Fuck off, you cheese-eating surrender monkeys!"
deb: then they'll say...let's go to iraq and make us some capitalists
JonasParker: Sure.
JonasParker: I am going to make a point of saying the phrase deus ex machina every day.
deb: what is that anyway?
deb: ah, right the super structure
JonasParker: It's an external force that comes in to fix things.
JonasParker: "God is NOT in the machine"
deb: he is the machine
JonasParker: No. "God" loves us and will deliver us from evil. God is outside and above the corruption. God is not in the machine. The Deus Ex Machina will set things right because it is not tainted by the structure.
deb: yo no comprendo
deb: are you being facetious
JonasParker: Well, yes. But that is the general idea of the godman, or any such external (divine) agent.
deb: but what if there is nothing to be fixed?
Posted by JonasParker at September 29, 2003 01:00 PM
| TrackBack